Cycling Over Sixty

AFTR: the Cascade Palouse Trail

• Tom Butler • Season 3 • Episode 34

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Join host Tom Butler as he launches an  new episode option for Cycling Over Sixty with the debut of "Alone for the Ride" (AFTR). In this immersive episode, Tom takes you on his first real gravel adventure along Washington's scenic Cascade Palouse Trail, blending real-time riding experiences with trail insights and spontaneous conversations with fellow cyclists along the way.

AFTR episodes are meant to put you on the trail with Tom, combining his personal journey tackling new terrain with practical information about the trail itself. You'll hear the crunch of gravel, feel the rhythm of the ride, and discover what makes the Cascade Palouse Trail a hidden gem for gravel enthusiasts.

Along the route, Tom chats with other riders he encounters, gathering their perspectives and stories that add depth to this virtual ride experience. Whether you're curious about gravel cycling, planning your own Cascade Palouse adventure, or simply want to experience the joy of discovery that comes with trying something new after sixty, this episode offers a unique window into both the physical and mental aspects of expanding your cycling horizons.

Links

Ted Radio Hour: Escaping the modern world and your noisy mind 

SILCA Pro Tire Pressure Calculator: silca.cc/pages/pro-tire-pressure-calculator

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Show music is "Come On Out" by Dan Lebowitz. Find him here : lebomusic.com

Tom Butler:

This is the Cycling Over 60 podcast, season three, episode 34,. Along for the ride on the Cascade Palouse Trail, and I'm your host, tom Butler. On Father's Day I scouted out a bikepacking option. We have the incredible Palusta Cascade Trail only about an hour from where I live. I'm pretty sure I can find a good overnight backpacking trip on the Cascade Palusta Trail. I've mentioned in a few episodes that I would like to do more bikepacking.

Tom Butler:

I started out the day with a plan to ride from Rattlesnake Lake to Cold Creek Campground. I started out the day with a plan to ride from Rattlesnake Lake to Cold Creek Campground. That route is 46 miles round trip on gravel with 2,511 feet of elevation gain. All the elevation gain is on the way out. I think the biggest grade is a few short sections of 5%. For me, hitting this trail could be a perfect way to get more experience with bikepacking and just gravel riding in general. I didn't stay overnight on this trip, but I was interested to see how full Cold Creek Campground was and I got a few surprises Before the ride. I thought that Cold Creek was accessible by car on forest roads, but I didn't really have an idea what it was like at all. It was a great opportunity to try out this route because the Roubaix is in the shop and I'm planning to ride the FX3 on gravel. I didn't load camping gear on the bike for this route. For this route, I'm not really worried about how I will handle having the bike loaded down because it's such a gentle route. One of the big questions I'm trying to answer is if gravel will be okay for Kelly to ride. We both think that finding gravel trails would mean more enjoyable bike experiences for Kelly because it would get her off the road, and my thinking before the ride is that the Cascade to Palouse Trail could provide an awesome option for us. Kelly's knees have limited us from doing backpacking. We like car camping, but camping in parks is difficult and you have to reserve really far in advance. Also, the campgrounds tend to be really crowded. It would be awesome to find that backpacking offers us an option to get out in the wilderness without as many crowds.

Tom Butler:

I thought that this route would provide an opportunity to work on developing a different kind of episode. I want to occasionally do a along for the ride or AFTR episode. The idea is that I can share my experience with a route in a different way. If this works, aftr episodes will have route info and include challenges that I face and solutions that I come up with, and I'll also have conversations with others that I meet on the trail. It can be a little weird walking up to somebody on a ride with a microphone, but I find people are typically willing to share a bit about their journey. One thing is that I'm certainly mindful of not keeping people too long to have a conversation, and that means conversations are typically pretty short. With a little work, I'm hoping that AFTR episodes bring some interesting variety to the podcast. I would love it if AFTR episodes generated some conversations on the Cycling Over 60 Strava Club. Those comments could add a lot to my observations and experiences. So bear with me as I figure out how to capture good sound quality while I'm on a ride. With that said, here we go.

Tom Butler:

It's just after 7 o'clock on a Sunday morning and I am sitting in a parking lot at Ralsnake Lake. I've been to this park before to enjoy the lake, but this is the first time that I've ever parked here to enjoy the Cascade to Palouse Trail. I'm sitting in a parking lot and beside me are some bear-proof trash cans, so that's something to think about. It seems absolutely impossible to see a bear on this trail and I've never heard anybody interacting with bears on the trail. But we are in the wilderness here. I feel extremely fortunate. I'm only 42 miles from home. I'm very close to Snoqualmie Pass right here Literally one of the most beautiful places in the United States. It's cool this morning.

Tom Butler:

I will be starting out with a jacket, but I don't think I'll be wearing it too long. I do have shorts on. I'm going to be on a trail and I expect to see some cyclists that are riding across Washington or maybe even riding across the US. I expect that how I'm dressed, which is more like someone going for a road ride, I expect that I'll look different than people who are out on a multi-day or multi-week or multi-month trip. My bike will definitely look different. I will not be loaded down. I do have my Trek FX3 and not my Roubaix. It has gravel tires on it. I will have a small trunk. I definitely will look like I'm not out for more than a day ride.

Tom Butler:

This is the first time in a long time that I'll be out on a route that I don't know anything about by myself. Yeah, I don't know exactly where to stop for water. I'm carrying enough water with me to go 30 miles. I've got a 40 mile round trip, so I will want to get some water somewhere along the way. I've not heard anybody talk about having to plan really well for water on this section of the trail, so I don't think it's going to be an issue. I'm really looking forward to this ride. I am excited to get out there and experience it. I'm really crossing my fingers that the trail is going to be smooth enough that this would be something that Kelly and I can frequently do.

Tom Butler:

On the way up I was listening to the TED Radio Hour and got a really good prep for this ride. On the way to the trailhead I listened to the June 13th episode of the TED Radio Hour podcast called Escaping the Modern World and your Noisy Mind. One of the segments featured author Pico Ayer. He talked about how he unplugs from the stimuli of his normal life. It really got me contemplating how writing for hours alone is a way to cleanse my mind from all the noise in the world. I'll put a link for the podcast episode in the show notes. I definitely recommend taking a listen.

Tom Butler:

There's a tree in front of me that has a sign nailed to it that says outbound, and I'm really curious about that. I don't know what that would refer to, but I'm really curious. How many people start a trip across the state of Washington from here? I wouldn't think you would. You'd be missing a lot of really cool trail by starting here. But I'm not sure what you get west from where I am. It might be that this is where the gravel part starts and it's west from here is mostly paved trail. I don't think that's the case, but I am curious about how many people start a trip across Washington, which again is the Cascade Palouse Trail all gravel. Well, that's enough of an intro.

Tom Butler:

It's time for me to get out, get the bike loaded up and get out of here. Well, I had to wander around a bit, but I think I finally made it to where I've met the trail. It was not really marked out about how to actually get to the Palooza Cascade Trail from the parking lot, so I actually made some mistakes. But I'm here. It's quiet, the sun is definitely going to be coming out. I can see a lot of blue skies overhead, so ready for a beautiful day. I'm five miles in and absolutely loving the atmosphere. I'm just out in the wilderness going through on a bike, not loving how rough it is. So I'm going to have to figure out something, maybe wider tires. I probably have my tires inflated a little bit too high, but I'm getting used to that. But it's just a constant vibration and it's fairly noisy. But to stop on the side of the trail here I'm actually on a bridge, just spectacular.

Tom Butler:

I decided to stop here for a minute and record. There's one thing kind of disappointing and it's interesting. I haven't heard anybody talk about this and I probably should have figured that it was going to be the case. But the Cascade Palouse Trail in this area going up over Snoop Kwame Pass goes near or parallel to Interstate 90. And it's quite noisy. It's not as peaceful and quiet here as I expected. It'll be interesting to see if maybe this whole section that I'm riding is mostly this noisy. The whole section that I'm riding is mostly this noisy.

Tom Butler:

So far it looks like there are plenty of port-a-potties. Just got passed by a couple people, pretty fully loaded down. Looks like they're doing a pretty long trip. But I'm really happy. There's a lot of port-a-potties along the way here. I have no idea how they get out here to pump them out, but that's pretty handy. I am now at Alice Creek Campground. I see a couple nice pads with really nice picnic tables alongside and a nice bathroom. This is about 10 miles in from Rattlesnake Lake and it looks like there's a family of four here on bikes. That's pretty cool.

Greg:

So what's your name? My name is Greg Ballas. I'm from North Bend, washington State. Nice. To see you, greg, nice to see you too Now.

Tom Butler:

you have kids here.

Greg:

Yep.

Tom Butler:

And you're here at Alice Creek Campground. Is that that's right? Okay, and you come up here often.

Greg:

Yeah, we ride this trail pretty regularly. It comes right down through the town of North Bend and I actually take my daughter to school in Snoqualmie every day riding on the Snoqualmie Valley Trail.

Tom Butler:

Wow, that's very cool. I love that. Now this campground. Have you stayed at other places along the trail or do you come?

Greg:

here, so we've stayed at other places along the trail. Last summer we did a trip where we left from our house in North Bend, we biked up through the tunnel underneath Snoqualmie Pass and camped on the shore of Lake Chess at the Cold Creek Campground.

Tom Butler:

Okay, that's my destination today. Oh, excellent, yeah, so that's cool. Now do cars come into Cold Creek? No, no, it's a biker hiker only. Okay, I wasn't sure about that. Well that's cool. Now, have you ever thought about doing all the way to the other side?

Greg:

we have thought about that, yeah, and someday maybe we'll do it. I've written just a minute sweetie.

Tom Butler:

Okay, so it's father's day. Happy father's day, and uh, you just got a request, can you?

Greg:

can you do it? My daughter just came over and asked me to uh hang up the hammock so she can have a swing in the hammock this morning. That's pretty awesome.

Tom Butler:

I love that. So then you are. It's a two-person hammock. Okay cool. I have to stop here and say that I thought it was really cute that his daughter was so excited about it being a two-person hammock. What I thought from a distance was a family of four ended up being two families biking together. I believe the big deal about her stressing it being a two-person hammock was that she was going to be able to share the hammock with her friend that was about the same age. It was a really fun Father's Day moment for me. So you're heading home, which is kind of cool the North Bend and then you'll come back and pick up your car. That's right. So do you have any big cycling trips coming up besides this?

Greg:

uh, this is, uh, the only one that we've got sort of on the books, but we do like to go a couple times each summer up to the sant juan islands. You know, just ride onto the ferry and get a campsite at one of the parks there on the islands and spend a weekend awesome.

Tom Butler:

So if you were going to give any advice on how to prepare for riding the Cascade Palouse Trail, what might you?

Greg:

say Just get out there and do it. It's a really nice trail, there are no cars to worry about, there's plenty of places to camp, there's plenty of places to access with various trailheads. So you know, get out there, give it a try, and you know, start short and go longer. Awesome, thank you so much.

Greg:

Thank you. So Start short and go longer Awesome.

Tom Butler:

Thank you so much. Thank you so got an interesting piece of information after I stopped the recording. Talked about his dad at 74, who lives in New England, still riding his bike every day at 74. And I asked him. I said is that what influenced you to do cycling? Or the other way around, did you influence your dad to bike? And he said, as far as he can remember, they've been a cycling family, they've always been cycling places and so, just as an adult yeah, he's just keeping it going and little kids I'm not really good at guessing kids' ages and they've got little trailers for kids and they'll probably grow up saying the same thing. We've always been a cycling family.

Tom Butler:

So it's cool to see I'm like 12 miles in, still going parallel to I-90, but far enough away and enough trees or something that it's nice and quiet here. The road noise, but not near as loud as it was earlier, really peaceful.

Tom Butler:

So what's your name?

Joanna:

Joanna

Tom Butler:

Swer, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. So you're out here on the Cascade Palouse Trail, correct? And do you do this often?

Joanna:

We

Joanna:

haven't done this in quite a few years. What do you think about it today? It's beautiful, nice weather, it's not too crowded. What is your favorite part about the trail? Do you have something that stands out?

Joanna:

Well, I like history, so it's always fun to see the historical pieces on here, and getting to the tunnel, of course, is fun and, yeah, just kind of peaceful out here.

Joanna:

Yeah, have you ever camped it? Have you ever bike packed?

Joanna:

Not yet.

Tom Butler:

But that sounds like you might someday Maybe. Yeah, okay, cool. Well, thank you so much. You're welcome. Thanks, I am coming up on the tunnel. They say it can be kind of cold in the tunnel, so I'm going to put my jacket on. I'm not that warm. Even though it's beautiful when you're stopped in the sun, it's a little cool in the shade when you're moving. So I'm not that warm, so I'm going to throw my jacket back on that I took off and turn on my headlamp and head on in. I am currently in the tunnel and it's much farther than I thought. It is incredible. You couldn't do it without a headlamp. For sure you could be around other people, maybe have someone in front and behind with a headlamp and do it, but it's dark. I'm glad I put on my jacket because it's pretty cool and it's somewhat damp. I think I can see the other side now, but it has been cool. It has been cool.

Chris:

Yeah, what's your name? My name is chris offman.

Tom Butler:

I'm from champaign, illinois okay, nice to meet you, chris. So you're out here on the cascade palouse trail, correct?

Greg:

yeah, and I think you said this is your first time here.

Tom Butler:

Yep, how much of it have you done?

Joanna:

well, we rode from kirkland yesterday to 60 mile, about 59 something, and then we're gonna do around 56 today okay, so kirkland to thorpe.

Tom Butler:

So where'd you stay last night? Stay along the trail, okay, okay, yeah, this direction coming from the west okay okay, carter creek okay so you had that. You came down a little bit of a trail off the main trail right.

Joanna:

Yeah, we had to take a couple other trails to get up to the Paloosta Castle. Yeah yeah, skirmish Valley Trail, okay.

Tom Butler:

Yeah, did you come out here to do this trail?

Joanna:

I flew this bike out from Champaign on the plane. That's the first time I've done that, so that was a new experience too, okay flying with a bike, yeah um but it worked out well.

Tom Butler:

Have you been doing other cycling since you got out here?

Joanna:

yeah, we rode across country two years ago, okay, but we started further north, uh, pretty much followed highway 20. Yeah, all the way across the straight of washington and, yeah, dog, and went down to missoula, okay, south, but we never, never came this route. We thought about doing this route when we rode across country, but we didn't. We weren't sure our bikes would handle the eastern side. Okay, because it gets a little, a little harder to navigate. Right, I hear larger rocks, larger rocks, possibly like more sandy areas. Yeah, yeah.

Tom Butler:

So you have any other trips planned. Do you got some big Rag braai, do you? Okay, now will that be your first time, or you've done that before? I do rag braai just about every year, is that right?

Joanna:

For I don't know, 15 years or so, okay, for 15 years or so, okay, fantastic. It's not just a party, it's whatever you want it to be.

Tom Butler:

Well, it looks like quite the event. Yeah, all right. Well, thanks so much. Thank you, bye now.

Tom Butler:

Part of the reason for this ride was to check out Cold Creek Campsite as a potential bikepacking site, and I did that. I'd have to say that I wasn't crazy about it. I guess there's two paths, so maybe there's just not that much traffic, but also it's pretty close to a parking lot, so it seems like a lot of people could just hike in and it would get full. So it seems like something that you couldn't really bank on. So I saw up the trail there was another campsite called Roaring Creek, and so I'm standing here by a sign that says Roaring Creek. It doesn't say anything about camping or anything. Normally there'll be a little tent if there's camping on the sign. And then there's like this steep hill in front of me. I think it would be extremely hard for us to get Kelly's bike up that hill. It would be extremely hard for us to get Kelly's bike up that hill. So I don't know, maybe further down the trail is the actual Roaring Creek campground and this is just a sign for the Roaring Creek. I suppose that's possible. But if this trail goes to the campsite, that's not an option either so far. I'm really glad I did this scouting trip because we could be out here all loaded down, not really finding a place to camp.

Tom Butler:

Well, I am a little farther down the trail now and I found a really nice little backcountry camping spot A very nice bathroom and A very nice bathroom and nice tent pads. There's only two, but I think if I went up a trail and explored a bit there could be more. This one's, I think, a far enough distance from the parking lot that there wouldn't be as much hiking traffic here. So I think this is the spot. I don't see any label here, but I'm calling this Roaring Creek Campground, just a little bit past the actual creek. I'm guessing that's what this is. I'm happy. Now it's time to turn around, head back home. Turn around, head back home. Okay, pro tip, when your son-in-law tells you you've got to check out Laconia Market. It's a really cute little market. You should find out what it takes to get there. I just ended up adding six miles to my route and climbing for about a mile of a 6% grade. I probably wouldn't have chosen to do that, but unfortunately I baked in a stop there to have water. So live and learn.

Jeremy:

Hi, I'm Jeremy Nice to meet you, Jeremy Nice to meet you.

Tom Butler:

So you're out here, it seems like, with a few people I am.

Jeremy:

And what are you? You up to today? So we're doing the uh great american wheel route riding from seattle to dc okay, so you're into it a little bit. What a couple days today is the first day oh, wow, okay, how far are you going today? So still gauging that, but we were, uh, just all talking about this as a group. We all seem that we have a few different ideas. I'm kind of considering Play Ellen, okay too about Ellensburg, depending on how I feel.

Tom Butler:

So what is it to hear from where? Just started at the Space Needle, Okay and what? What's that to hear? 81 miles. Okay, okay, cool, and you've been on this trail before First time actually from Virginia. Okay, you came out to do this. I did. Are you in and up in Virginia?

Jeremy:

I am.

Tom Butler:

What did you think so far?

Jeremy:

This is unreal. This is awesome. In fact that tunnel just blew me away. It was great.

Tom Butler:

I hadn't been through the tunnel before. It was longer than I expected.

Jeremy:

It played with my eyes than I expected. So, yeah, it played with my eyes. As I was riding through it, I thought I kept on seeing like the end, and just kept on going now the climbing here is just like steady, a lot different than Virginia, I think oh, yeah, yeah, for me to train in Virginia I have to go out towards Shenandoah National Park. Okay, but out here it's. I think what carries me through is the view of the mountains and the trees and everything. Yeah, and what a beautiful day. It's unreal.

Tom Butler:

Yeah, this is awesome. Now, what do you think about a resource like this? Do you think it's important?

Jeremy:

I do. I'm a big advocate for rails and trails and just biking in general. My interest for this ride was primarily because it was its goal was to keep us away from heavily traveled areas, maximize rails to trails, gravel routes, and that's one of the big incentives for me when I signed up for it.

Tom Butler:

What do you think it provides as far as the public is concerned?

Jeremy:

I think it does a couple things for an area. I think the one thing that it does is it provides a healthy outlet for people to come into the area and exercise and you get a lot more folks coming from other areas to use it. At least that's how it is for me where I live. You know it's definitely a form of active tourism. And then the other aspect is it's it's kind of gets people outside. You know it gets them away from the car, go out and kind of into nature.

Tom Butler:

Yeah, nice. Well, nice to meet you, absolutely, you're welcome and your name Michael. Nice to meet you, michael. So you're out here with a group. Tell me about what got you out here today.

Michael:

Well, I watched. Last year was the inaugural run of this and I saw it online and followed them across and I said I've always wanted to do a cross-country ride. So I said this looked like one of the safest ways to do it. So I said I'm gonna do it Nice.

Tom Butler:

Now have you done a lot of gravel riding before.

Michael:

This is my first gravel bike and I bought it after I saw this last year.

Tom Butler:

Okay.

Michael:

And I've never done more than a two-day ride.

Jeremy:

Okay.

Tom Butler:

Wow, that's awesome, just jump in. I love it. Tell me what you bought, why you bought it.

Michael:

Salsa Warbird had pretty good reviews and it was a fairly economical bike. Okay, because it's my 9th bicycle, so I have to not spend too much Gotcha.

Tom Butler:

So what do you think about a resource like the Cascade Palouse Trail?

Michael:

Well, I actually used to live in Washington. I live in Florida now, but I've actually been out here and rode this, and this is actually my seventh time through the tunnel.

Greg:

Okay so.

Michael:

I've done the Palusta Cascades between Beverly and Twin Falls a couple times.

Tom Butler:

Okay. Do you think that it provides something unique to the?

Michael:

population. Yes, I do. It's great, and if you look around see how many people are here, it kind of shows yeah.

Tom Butler:

Yeah, that's a beautiful day to be out here.

Michael:

It is a beautiful day.

Tom Butler:

Now, do you mind me asking your age? I'm 65. Okay, so my podcast is called Cycling Over 60. Okay, and so our goal is to try to get people on bikes later on in life, and so that's good. So tell me a little bit about what you're expecting to experience. You're now day one, 86 miles into. What a 3700 mile trip, yes, okay. So what are you expecting?

Michael:

I'm hoping to average about 100 miles a day and make it in about 40 days, but if it takes a little longer, that's okay.

Tom Butler:

All right, well, fantastic, so nice to meet you. Good luck on your trip. Thank you very much. Thanks for taking the time.

Tom Butler:

One thing that I've not heard anyone talk about and to me is kind of a surprising hassle and probably something I should have thought about, is if you ride on a dirt trail like the Cascade to Palouse Trail is a gravel trail you kick up dust, which that's not that surprising, but I didn't think about how caked with dust the top of my water bottle would be. So what do you do? Do you try to wipe it off? Do you figure out a way how to spray it in your mouth without touching the tip of the water bottle? When I try to do that, I end up getting electrolyte water on my leg. Maybe I'm just needing to practice not touching the nozzle of the water bottle when I'm drinking from it. Or do you just consume some dirt and get some extra minerals on your ride? I don't know.

Tom Butler:

I'm in an interesting place in the trail. I'm by a sign with big red letters that says Avalanche. Now I think that they're talking about a snow avalanche and there's information about how the Chicago, milwaukee, st Paul and Pacific Railroad how they maintain the tracks in wintertime. It says snow was a constant problem along the railroad tracks in this part of the Cascades. If switches or rails were clogged with snow or ice the train could derail. So it's interesting because there are some pretty significant concrete pads that I think were used at one time to support structures to try to keep snow off the tracks in this particular area. It must be particularly open to avalanche in the wintertime and it says that there were snow sheds that were designed so that avalanches flowed over the top of the snow shed roof rather than block the tracks. Those snow sheds were demolished between 1993 and 1994. So they were here for a while because they were built in 1911.

Tom Butler:

Okay, here's the dilemma. I pulled over because my water bottle cage was loose, was rattling. Somebody came up and said, hey, did you lose a jacket? And I looked and sure enough, my jacket's gone off the back. I did not think that was possible. I thought I had it cinched in there. Good, but unfortunately it's gone.

Tom Butler:

So do I ride a mile and a half back, is what he thought to get the jacket? I think I have to. Oh well, after I turned around, I didn't have to go very far because I ran into some hikers who had picked up my jacket. Fortunately they were heading in my direction. Not long after that my phone battery died, so if I continue to do AFTR episodes, I will have to address that issue.

Tom Butler:

I ended up riding 58.5 miles with 2,663 feet of elevation. My average heart rate was 127, which means it was an easy pace. I was on the bike riding for about five and a half hours. I am curious about how Strava handles an easy pace. I was on the bike riding for about five and a half hours. I am curious about how Strava handles the tunnel. When I was in the tunnel, I know there wasn't a data connection for my bike computer, so it seems like Strava would have to extrapolate that information somehow, or maybe the tunnel section is just left out of the total miles. I did enjoy the experience and I felt it was really helpful to scout it out, but I felt that five and a half hours on gravel beat the heck out of me. It ended up, leaving me with a lot of questions.

Tom Butler:

Recently, a new bike shop moved into my area. Northwest Try and Bike is a well-established shop and I've heard good things about them from a friend on the podcast, mike Baltierra. I'm sorry, mike, that you have to drive further to get to your shop now, but I'm also glad that it's closer to me. As the name implies, they do include a focus on triathlons. I really doubt that I'll be taking advantage of that. Since the gravel ride brought up questions for me, I decided it was a great opportunity for me to visit the shop and ask some questions. From the moment you walk in you can tell they are a real professional operation. You will hear on the recording that it was a buzz of activity as well. I was fortunate to have John Morrison offer to answer my questions because he's a really experienced off-road rider. I'm John. Nice to meet you, john. So here's my thing.

Tom Butler:

I rode the Cascade Cluster Trail. I've been looking forward to trying to do more gravel riding. I got out there and it was beautiful. I loved it out there and I'd like to spend time out there. But the truth of the matter is that I just didn't really like the experience. I mean I felt I was out there for about six hours.

Tom Butler:

I want to give more of my thoughts here, since that audio failed a bit. The main thing that I was mentioning to John was that I felt like I got beat up really bad on the trail. I think John heard more. It seems like he was immediately thinking of a number of things that could lead to more enjoyable gravel riding. I really appreciate him taking that perspective and I thought it was a big impact by the time I got back. So I don't know if that means that I'm just not a gravel rider, if it means that I'm on the wrong bike. So I was just wanting to get some opinion from someone and since you work in a bike shop, I was told that you have some experience with gravel riding. But I thought I'd just pick your brain a bit.

Jon:

Yeah, I have a little bit of experience with all bicycle riding. Okay, one of the big things with gravel riding is it just gets you out a little bit more on trails, where you don't have to have the mountain bike with all the switchbacks and the suspension, and it allows you to be a little bit quicker when you're doing the.

Jon:

Palouse to Cascade trail because it is an old railed trail. It's very straight Right. So it kind of gets mundane after a while. So you do the big long climb coming out of North Bend, you do one turn up by Rattlesnake and then you just kind of go straight. There's a couple little corners, but they're nothing tricky, so it gets a little boring.

Tom Butler:

So it sounds to me like what you're saying is that you're losing something. If you're going to be gravel riding, there's an element where you're on trails that are a little more interesting than just going straight on a railroad, an old railroad.

Jon:

Am I hearing that right? Yeah, so part of the excitement with the gravel riding is being able to go out with your friends. Get a little bit more adventure portion into it. Okay, push the barriers on making a corner. You can feel a little bit of a slide, but it's not dangerous. You don't need the mountain bike aspect. You don't need the mountain bike aspect. The mountain bike you're doing. You know, on average for the ride, 7 to 10 miles an hour.

Tom Butler:

On a gravel bike you're up and around 12 to 20 miles an hour so it's just a different aspect With mountain biking, I would say the descents make me nervous. Now, I've not done a lot of it, so I can maybe learn bike handling skills or something, but I would have to say that was one thing attractive to me about gravel riding is that there wasn't the steep downhills.

Jon:

Correct, it's more being able to go out and ride to a location on your daily commuter bike and then go off trail so you're not having to stay on the road and do some crisscross and cutting through like hopping on the wilderness trail. Okay, getting off of the road so you're not stuck with traffic. Today's traffic is not the same as it was 20 years ago. Okay, getting off of the road so you're not stuck with traffic. Today's traffic is not the same as it was 20 years ago. Yeah, so you get off the trail. You get to be less worrisome about what's behind you and coming and just kind of enjoy it and getting out with some friends. The aspect of gravel riding you've got all kinds of different gear. You can get bigger tires. There are more rolling resistance factors. Do you want to go out and race or do you just want to go out and go bikepacking? Load up your bike, take it up in the mountains.

Tom Butler:

Here's one of the questions that I got when I got off the trail, I liked being out in the mountains. Here's one of the questions that I had when I got off the trail. I liked being out in the wilderness. But you know, again, I wasn't comfortable with the bumpiness the whole time. I was on this bike, which is my Trek FX3, and I had the tire pressure at 65. Fx3. And I have the tire pressure at 65. So I'm thinking I could reduce that.

Jon:

So, yes, based on your tire size, it looks like you're running 35s. Yes, probably drop that down. It depends if you're running 200 or 200s. Okay, closer to a 45. Okay, so that'll absorb a lot of the vibration bumps. Okay, best way to describe it is the basketball. Do you want to bounce off of each rock or do you want to absorb? Okay, so you inflate your tires too much and it becomes a basketball. So you're just bouncing off of everything?

Tom Butler:

Yeah, rather than letting the bike absorb and roll through, see, and I think that's what I was doing. I think that's what it felt like, like I was bouncing off of every bump.

Jon:

Yeah, and right now it looks like you're riding a commuter bike. Yes so you're more upright.

Greg:

Yes.

Jon:

So you're more prone to only one hand position and you're sitting up really straight.

Tom Butler:

So when you say that, is that a factor about how the bumps are transferring through my body, is that kind of what you're thinking? They'll?

Jon:

transfer more. The more you sit upright Okay. The more they're going to come through your seat Okay. The more lean forward you can get more into your arms, and your arms are generally bent a little bit, so they'll absorb a little bit.

Tom Butler:

Okay, and then also with a lot of bikes you can get small suspension upgrades yes, that will help dampen a lot of those bumps, so I want to talk about that in a second. I think these 35s are as wide as I can go on this bike, is that? Do you think that's the case?

Jon:

it's close, you might be able to get a 38 in there. It's one of those. You kind of want to take a look and see what the spec for that bike is. Okay, because once you put the tire in, yeah there is supposed to be some gap, otherwise if you pick up a little lock or something that sticks in your tire, don't want that hitting the freeway.

Tom Butler:

Okay, so the manufacturer somewhere would say these are the widest tires for the spring. Is that right, correct?

Jon:

Okay, I know with mine. It calls out a 30. I know I can put a 32 in there. I might be able to push a wide rim 32, which will actually come out to closer to 43. But again, you're taking away a lot of the compliance Okay and the plus or minus tolerances that the bike's going to have.

Tom Butler:

Yeah, and it's interesting because you know it seems like they have this frame cut in a specific way, you know, to accommodate a little wider tire. But it's interesting to me. Here's what, what I'm thinking, and you'll know more about it than I will. If I could bump this up to a 35 and then again run it at 40, 45 pounds, you could actually just run the 35s that you've got now and do reduce that weight.

Jon:

Okay, yes, I agree. There's several calculators out on the internet that will help you with that.

Michael:

I use this, the Silca tire calculator.

Jon:

You put in a bunch of different key points tire size, tire circumference, what kind of pavement asphalt that you're riding on, how much do you weigh, and then also what kind of bike are you riding things like that asphalt that you're riding on, how much do you weigh, and then also what kind of bike are you riding things like that. So then it will give you a general calculation to start with. It gives you you know within a couple of psi what I find to be right then.

Tom Butler:

The other thing I thought about is maybe putting a stem that has some shock absorption.

Jon:

Yes.

Tom Butler:

It seems like that would do a lot.

Jon:

It does do a lot. I have one on my gravel bike. I run one of the Shrem Rockshot and I was out riding a couple weekends ago. It's fairly new to my gravel bike and I'm riding and I was like oh, I've got this, so I dropped it down, and with that one you have to come down like five, 10 millimeters, and then it gives you some compliance.

Jon:

I want to say it's 20 or 30 millimeters of absorption. That takes out an auto check. You can do the same with the front end. Redshift and many other companies make a stem that will absorb a lot of the bumps in the front end. So you don't actually have to spend a lot of shock. You can just put it into the stem and it'll take out a lot of that vibration factor. And then, yeah, it just kind of depends how you like to ride. I know every once in a while you'll get out there To rest my hands. You just kind of put your hands behind you and sit up for a little bit, take some deep breaths, lean back down and go at it again.

Tom Butler:

I'm at this point right now. Like you said, this is a commuter bike. This is my run-around town bike. So the question is, do I go ahead and try deflating the tires?

Jon:

uh, shock absorbing, stem on. Or I always suggest start with the things that are free. Okay, so go in this tire pressure that's free, doesn't cost anything, doesn't work out for you if you just pump it back up a little bit Again, play with that a little bit, Go out ride some gravel, ride some chip seal on pavement.

Jon:

You'll feel it there as well, and as you start enjoying it more, start investing a little bit more Work on. Is it my front end, where my arms are feeling it, or is it my rear, with the seat?

Tom Butler:

you can play with that as well, okay and then if I get to the point I'm like it's, I've done these things and it's not enough, then if I went out and looked that I it might be an issue of finding a different bike too. Is that right?

Jon:

The bike does have a good part of it. It's not the end all. But again, are you driving a Volkswagen Beetle from 1965, or are you driving a Honda? The vehicle will give you more compliance on the road and on the gravel, and if the bike's built for that and designed for that the rig and it's built into the frame, things like that it will feel more comfortable. Yeah.

Jeremy:

And I'm not looking to race gravel.

Tom Butler:

You know, I'm just looking to go out and have a recreational ride.

Jon:

Yeah, I've got a couple gravel bikes. One is just for commuting and riding for our Sunday rides.

Michael:

Okay.

Jon:

And the other one, I'll go out and I'll race gravel.

Jeremy:

Okay, you'll push it.

Jon:

But I'll go out and get a little fun with my hands on some hills up and over. Okay, but yeah, it's just making it as fun as you can and again, find some groups that go out on the road, okay, and that will make those longer straight rides that don't have a lot of excitement a little more enjoyable Because now you've got conversation yeah. Think of it as if you go for a walk. You're by yourself. Who are you talking to? Well, you can talk to yourself.

Greg:

You go out.

Jon:

You're out with some friends now you're starting a conversation and now, all of a sudden, you've gone 10 miles instead of just 5. Things will go a little quicker and it's more enjoyable.

Tom Butler:

Now here's the final question. Now, this was a ending on me. There might be no answer to this. I'm curious if you've ever thought about this, if anybody has brought this up, but my bottles were filled with it.

Greg:

And so I felt like every time I was taking a drink I was taking in like sand or dirt or whatever.

Tom Butler:

Is there a solution for?

Jon:

that there's some bottles that have little caps on them. Okay, I don't like those. I don't like to have to try and flip them over.

Joanna:

Yeah.

Jon:

But for the most part my, I guess, side secret. Don't put it in your mouth, just pull that up and just squirt it in.

Joanna:

Well, and when I try that I end up with.

Jon:

Give it a little squirt before you squirt it in your mouth.

Tom Butler:

Okay, well, I'm just saying what I'm saying is that I get it on my like shorts, I get on my legs for some reason.

Greg:

I guess I need to practice like how does squirt water in my mouth?

Jon:

okay, so that's that's how most people handle it, because they just learn to not have to put it in their mouth and if it, if it gets to a point where you're just not comfortable doing it and you're always getting dirty, yeah, just stop wipe it off, take a drink, look around then start to write, and that I did that.

Tom Butler:

That's you know. I like taking in a little water, a lot when I'm writing on the road.

Greg:

I like taking in a little water, a lot when I'm riding on the road, because he's just having more water, you know, at a stop yeah.

Tom Butler:

Well, John, I really appreciate it.

Jeremy:

I'm wondering if you have, is there anything?

Tom Butler:

else you can think of. That I didn't ask. Maybe Not that I can think of.

Jon:

I mean again, for the most part, go out, find a group that rides. That will make it a lot more enjoyable. Okay, and when you're doing those rides and I mean cross-grade has a lot of road rides yeah, find one that's in your group of how fast you like to ride and every once in a while go and do one that's a little more spicy. Okay, don't always stick to the normal.

Michael:

If you're out on a trail you see a mountain bike trail that goes off to the side.

Jon:

You've got a gravel bike. Go try it. The worst that's going to happen is you're going to have to get off and walk like a snake.

Tom Butler:

All right, Well, again, thanks so much.

Tom Butler:

John Not a problem, thank you. I went on the Silca website for their recommendations on tire pressure. I'll put a link to their tire pressure calculator in the show notes. There are several data fields that they ask you to fill in. For weight, I entered in 220 pounds. I chose Category 2, gravel. For the surface condition, they have a surface guide to help determine what to put there. The tire width is 35, wheel diameter 700C. For tire type, I selected puncture resistant tire, tubeless or latex tube. I think that describes my Gravel King tires that I use with tubes. For average speed they didn't have miles per hour. Instead they have categories, so I chose recreational and then for weight distribution, I chose mountain bikes because I think that more represents the upright position of the FX3. They request your email address before you go any further and that, of course, is so that they can send you promotional material. The recommendation I got from Silco was right, in line with John Front tire 43 PSI and rear 45.5.

Tom Butler:

After my conversation with John, I thought about using a hydro pack to cut down on the amount of northwest soil I would consume on a gravel ride. Since we have a nice light hydro pack, I think I will try it next time I ride gravel I'm a bit concerned about it getting hot with it on my back, but I'll have to see how that goes. Another issue is that I don't know if it's a good idea to put electrolytes in the water bladder. I know it will make it harder to clean, so I might have to figure out an alternative way to take in electrolytes if I'm using the HydroPak.

Tom Butler:

My final thought on this ride is that we're going to have to look for a different bike for Kelly if we're going to bikepack the Cascade to Palouse Trail. A bike that allows her to be in a comfortable position and also handle the constant bumps of gravel might be a little hard to find, but we are going to start looking harder for one. That's a wrap for the first AFTR episode. The audio was a bit rough at times, but I'll work on polishing that up in the future. That is, if people like this kind of content, like Greg, the father I met on the trail, said just get out there and ride and remember age is just a gear change.

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